Adem Bona had a solid game, but got in foul trouble late. (Photo credit: @UCLAMBB)
Not good!
For 32 minutes of this game, the UCLA Bruins were playing solid basketball. It was not perfect basketball by any means, but they were doing a lot of the small things they needed to do to have a lead. And then the Bruins collapsed; Villanova was able to go on an 11-0 run from the 8:03 mark in the second half and was able to completely flip this game on its head, ultimately losing 65-56.
There are a few things to point out here:
What happened to Dylan Andrews? It looked like Sebastian Mack rolled up on his legs in the second half and Andrews did not return to the game, but his absence clearly affected the Bruins, who had to rely on Mack more to create and played a lot of Jan Vide in a close game. Andrews was by far the most effective Bruin in this game, so his absence was notable late.
What was the thought process of going zone late? Mick Cronin has talked about looking to implement a zone defense with Aday Mara, and there was some success with it early, but late in this game UCLA returned to the zone to some disastrous results. The biggest problems with the zone at the moment are that it led to a lot of easy looks from distance by a Villanova team that is a solid 3-point shooting group, and the personnel on UCLA did not make a ton of sense with a bunch of slower defenders on the court.
What is going on with Lazar Stefanovic? The transfer was highly-touted in the preseason by the coaching staff, but his play in the game did not come close to matching that level of hype. Stefanovic finished with a team-high 14 points but on a wildly-inefficient 5-19 shooting, with Stefanovic missing both shots from distance and right at the rim (the worst miss, in my opinion, being his complete whiff of a layup on a fast-break midway through the second half that could have stopped Nova’s momentum). His defense was similarly frustrating to watch at times, as he was constantly overhelping and leaving his man open beyond the arc. Just not the performance you want from your veteran.
On the flip side, Sebastian Mack had what felt like his first real freshman game of the year, with a lot of out-of-control drives and unfocused defense. He’s going to improve as the season progresses, but this was not a great night to have this kind of performance.
Was that the best the two-big lineup is going to look? This was perhaps the best the lineup has looked all season, with Bona able to hunt defensively while Aday Mara had perhaps his best game of the year (eight points, five rebounds). But this was also a sloppy defensive look and a struggle when it came to offensive spacing. I feel we have to see the end of this lineup sooner than later.
Just repeat: this team is young and learning. This team is young and learning. This team is young and learning.
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I remember back in the day when the NorthWestern schools would play us with the stall. We saw a visiting team in Pauli play keep-away. "Boring" we would chant. We were a fast break team
I remember Ed O, Charles O, Tyus, Cam Dollar, George Z, Toby Bailey and JR. The seniors and freshmen blended so perfectly. That '95 team was a thing of beauty. Bailey and JR didn't take long to show their incredible talent.
There was also a time when a full ride scholarship was considered to be valuable and was appreciated. The NIL and the portal have ruined college sports imho.
I think that the portal and NIL are why Roy Williams and Jay Wright left the game.
Despite roster turnover endemic to college hoops, UCLA seems more beset by the challenges of continuity and blending classes than other programs, and faces that as a challenge EACH YEAR. (We've seen CMC teams are slow to mesh, but develop they do.) He was angered that the pundits left the Bruins unranked preseason. He took it personally that they dismissed the talent he assembled, and his track record. Who is in the right at this early season juncture?
I didn't hear his post-game presser with Josh and Tracy, but by all accounts, he must gain his composure before the team can gain control of the court.
All very good points. We shall see how this season unfolds. But when all is said and done, at least we have the prestigious LA Bowl to look forward to...
'95 was past my time, Tamara. Letting the kids cash in on sponsor ship ruined it as well. $$$ is the end of things. I listen to sports radio in my car. There's a sports betting site called Fanduel. They're an"official partner of the NFL". WTF? Pet Rose can't enter the Baseball Hof?
Pete Rose bet on games that he played in and that he managed and was in position to alter the outcome of games. That is not analogous to having FanDuel as an NFL sponsor.
Ed O let the charge for the NIL. I'm all for it. Yes, NIL and the transfer portal have ruined the "establishment." But it benefits the players which is the whole point of school: to give them a better chance to make a good living. As much as I want to see my school win, I care more about what happens to them after school.
NIL and the portal benefits only the student - athlete, but does not benefit them after school. Only a fraction of student-athletes play professional sports. It is academics which prepares them for after school. So, if you're concerned about what happens to them after school, wouldn't you be more concerned about their education and chance to earn a good living than the NIL/portal?
I loved the '95 team and I loved Ed and Charles. But I do not like the portal or the NIL regardless of Ed leading the charge. The athletes get a full ride scholarship and that is worth 10s of 1000s at UCLA, and for out of state athletes its worth well over $100k. Most of us ordinary students could only dream of a full ride scholarship. This is my opinion and I am certain there are many who will disagree.
Disappointed in so many ways. The play calling from the bench is one of the many reasons players don’t want to play for mick. His recruiting has been really poor on high tier talent. We can’t really count the foreign players in my opinion because this year is proof that won’t work.
USC for example has no coach, but at least he can get commits from his back yard! This team will get better like they all do, but mick has reached his ceiling with last years team. Jaquez was always coming to ucla regardless of who was coaching… there just aren’t that many Jaime’s interested in ucla anymore
Yes. bringing in so many overseas players and not being able to recruit locally this past year is not working. The overseas guys are not very well suited for the college game in terms if strength, defense, or quickness.
I have tried to remain positive and hopeful that at least Mara and Berkey will develop and become solid contributors. We do have talent at the guard positions. But the chemistry and leadership is not there as Bona keeps getting in foul trouble and he is our best player imho.
Last year's team could have won the championship without the injuries, but there were still long stretches of no offense in many games.
Dylan Andrews was held out for a big chunk of the second half due to cramps, according to post game comments
I think it’s a little too early to say that a group of freshmen aren’t working. It’s not even the conference season yet! Freshmen generally aren’t plug-and-play. We saw how that failed with Dante Moore this year and with guys like Peyton Watson in the past. Even players like Zach Lavine didn’t do well in college and it wasn’t until he had several years of nba coaching that he started meeting his potential.
I do think it’s important to recognize the progress that guys like Aday and Ilane have made in working their way to becoming better players. And with Berke, he’s only played 3 games before going down with an injury, and he didn’t have the benefit of running with the team against the early season cupcakes. I still have faith in Cronin to turn this team around, because this team still looks further along than the team he had in his first year.
I really like your assessment and perspective. Perhaps I jumped too early on thinking this is not working. We shall see how this season unfolds. I hope they all develop and grow together. Bona has the chance to be a real leader and help those around him.
In hindsight, I think the disappointment may be rooted in the huge hype machine that built up Mara and to a bit lesser degree built up Berkey. It's easy to be let down when expectations are high. But patience is something to be valued.
I think this is fair to an extent… but I also have wondered for the last few years why it is that players don’t want to stay in ucla?
Peyton Watson is a prime example of this where he could have benefited from more years in college.
A few more examples of players going pro that should clearly have stayed:
Amari Bailey
Tyger Campbell
Jaylen Clark
Johnny juzang
Chris smith
Cody Riley
I get it, players want to take their shot going pro… but it’s a bit strange that they are so anxious to get out of ucla under mick.
My other big player issue is the development of bigs, or lack of, under mick cronin…
Cody Riley
Mac etienne
Kenneth nwuba
Myles Johnson
Aden bona
*aday Mara
UCLA has always failed to get as much out of bigs as they should under mick. Adem is a freak of nature on defense, but he still gets some really dumb fouls and makes a lot of really bad decisions on offense. He’s made progress, but I have no idea why he stayed this year. Would have gotten so much better coaching and development in the nba then he will get under mick. Adem needs offense development.
Lastly, and I’ve said it before… mick’s recruiting has gotten worse. I don’t blame recruits for not wanting to come to ucla. If I’m an nba prospect, I’m not coming to ucla… there’s no way I’m playing for mick over the options of self, calipari, few, Lloyd, scheyer, Sampson…. The list goes on. Sorry, but the bench coaching on offense is an absolute killer for anybody that’s talented enough and wants to learn by making mistakes.
I mean, with that first group, for some like Campbell and Smith it was time for them to move on, and you shouldn't hold it against Cronin that they decided to finally go to pro ball after staying at the school for 4+ years. Juzang, if you'll recall, actually came back an extra year and didn't capitalize on when his draft stock was highest following the Final Four run. Clark was probably gone after this year anyway and you could easily see a world where he decides its more beneficial to his long-term development to do his recovery with a pro team and not have to worry about things like college classes. And this doesn't even get into the fact that Cronin was able to keep guy for multiple years. Campbell decided to stick around for five years instead of transferring after Cronin first arrived in Westwood, Jaquez played his entire career here. Juzang, Bernard, Riley all stayed extra years when they could have left early (Riley stuck around even after China). It's like, yeah Watson and Bailey left early, but they were both projected to be 1st round picks when they came to Westwood, and likely had already decided that was what they wanted to do no matter how the season played out. Certainly that decision is working for Watson, and the jury is out on how it will play for Bailey (certainly ending up in Charlotte is as big a hindrance as anything in his case).
I think the big thing is a dynamic to monitor, but I would also note that UCLA has been a very perimeter-oriented squad since Cronin arrived, which made sense since they had Campbell/Jaquez/Juzang/Bailey for most of that run. UCLA's bigs have never really been a focal point as they are this year, so it will be interesting to see if the development improves now that they're getting more focus.
Finally, I think it is important to note that the NBA and college require two very different skillsets. You don't get as many cases of one player absolutely dominating college the same way you do in the NBA thanks to different rules on defense, fouling, the shotclock, etc. And the Final Fours the last few years have been dominated by coaches who are heavily involved in what their team does on a possession-by-possession basis (like, give Self credit here, the dude is always coaching while play is happening). The best advertisement for Cronin right now is that the best rookie playing in the NBA right now is...Jaime Jaquez, the prototypical Cronin player.
I specifically commented that I don’t think Jaime is the norm though… more specifically, mick didn’t recruit Jaime. He was coming to ucla regardless as he said many times.
I stand by my point that mick is a very poor recruiter and that incoming players don’t want to play for him. The only reason the foreigners even came left before the season started. Mick had a plethora of open scholarships and struck out across the board. That says something about his ability to get good players to come to ucla.
I have to disagree with your premise that players don’t like playing for Mick. UCLA has one of the lowest transfer outs in the country. In fact, with the exception of Jake Kyman (who has been struggling everywhere he’s gone), everyone who’s transferred out were reportedly asked to leave to make room for our incoming freshmen.
As for your list of who should’ve stayed: Juzang literally returned to play for Mick when his stock was super high following the FF run,
Tyger already was in college for 5 years and didn’t want a 6th year in college (who would?) and he’s currently playing in one of the best leagues in Europe. Same with Cody
Clark was National Defensive POY. When you’re literally the best defensive player in the country, what more can any college coach teach him? If he came back and struggled post-injury, that would have severely hurt his stock. Same with Chris Smith - coming back from injury is rough and risk is too high already if your ultimate goal is a professional contract.
As for big men development, I actually think Cronin has done a good job. Bona has made tremendous improvement on both the defensive and offensive end. Last year, he didn’t have a jump shot but he’s added that to his arsenal this year. Mara is still 9 games in and we’re already seeing massive improvement in his footwork and movement. He just needs to put on weight to avoid getting pushed around but that happens over a number months, not weeks. As for Nwuba, he was a lightly recruited barely 3-star player from Alford’s last recruiting class (I believe) and he’s now a serviceable backup and defensive player and was instrumental in our FF run.
If players don’t like mick, then why doesn’t ucla have incoming talent like all the other blue bloods. USC is getting better players than ucla these days, because us players don’t want to play for mick! Why would you go to usc? The only reason is because you want to be in LA and the alternative isn’t as appealing! It certainly isn’t because they like enfield… he’s a garbage coach, but it says something that most incoming us players choosing between mick and enfield choose enfield
Wake up y’all… next years recruiting pull so far isn’t any good either
I feel like there's a real misunderstanding of why Southern Cal got Collier and Bronny and the like. As you mention, it's not because Enfield is a good coach, but rather because he is so bad that he cannot afford to tell his players what to do, which means those guys can get their NIL bag (which is something you happen to leave out repeatedly regarding how UCLA isn't on the same level of some of the other programs on that front) while doing whatever they want.
Also, like, that USC team with all the amazing recruits has lost to UCI and Long Beach State already this year. Turns out recruiting isn't the be-all, end-all!
I told you, the reason they suck is because they don’t have a coach… not because they don’t have good players. USC is getting just as many players to the nba as ucla most years. They lose because they don’t have a coach, not because they aren’t good players.
I don’t know how the nil deals work, but it seems that anyone can do it no? Is ucla excluded from good nil deals, or just that they don’t actually have players that are good enough for one?
NIL deals as they currently exist are essentially boosters pooling money together to pay players. UCLA's boosters have been, by and large, wary of joining in on the NIL wars, so UCLA's NIL fund is much lower than that of a Kansas/Kentucky/Duke. That's part of the reason UCLA shifted to the Euros last year; they did not have the money to compete for the big names they were in on, but the Euros did not require a huge NIL commitment. The UCLA NIL fund is doing better, and I believe the reports are that each player is getting a decent amount of money, but we're nowhere near what the top levels are.
UCLA isn't excluded from anything beyond what they can afford, and Cronin has been doing his best to try and engage the donor base to support NIL (he's the one UCLA coach constantly wearing MoW merch and promoting it, unlike Chip Kelly). Problem is UCLA Admin has not been similarly supportive, and the UCLA NIL itself has been pretty small-time in how it approached things. Apparently they're ramping up now, but I am still wary of the group for various reasons.
For the record, on another thread, I said that UCLA is getting the cold shoulder from recruits because of a lack moneybags for NIL, hence the Euro pursuit.
To add on to what Dimitri said abt the difference between Enfield vs Cronin, the reason we have only one signed recruit next year is because we only have one scholarship available with Nwuba’s graduation. Should Bona leave, I’m sure ucla will be in the hunt for more recruits although I wouldn’t be surprise if they go hunting in the transfer portal.
Good programs plan on having 3 scholarships available every year. If you’re keeping an entire set of players and only one scholarship is available, that limits your ability to keep up with all the other blue bloods that realize this. A program full of juniors and seniors in a big 5 conference is doing something wrong… good college players leave for better opportunities
Except look at the roster of the ncaa tournament champions of the last few years - they’re all comprised heavily of 3-4 year players as their major contributors
It’s a good clarification. I think most of the players can develop technical skills in the nba better if there is an nba team that will teach them. Should adem have gone to the nba his path may have looked a lot more like Watson for example imo.
Then there are players like Jaime that develop game skills by staying for additional years and getting actual game play time. Jaime got lots of play time because he wasn’t constantly in foul trouble though. Our big players are constantly in foul trouble under cronin. This means less player development which is really all you are staying in college for is actual game play
You sure do have it in for Mick Cronin and most of it is unfair and unreasonable. I hold a completely different viewpoint than you. I believe Mick has gotten the best out of the players who have come through his program, starting with the players he inherited from Alford and including the players he signed.
Cronin is largely disadvantaged when it comes to recruiting. It's difficult for him to go after the best kids in the country when UCLA barely registers a blip on the radar screen when it comes to NIL money. Out of the top 100 college basketball players on the NIL money list, UCLA has one player, Adem Bona, listed at #89 with $98K total NIL money. That may seem like a lot of money, but the top 37 basketball players have NIL deals totaling over $250,000.
Put it this way: There are fourteen (14) NCAA women basketball players making more money than Adem Bona.
The best players in the country are not coming to UCLA unless they are 1) bringing their own NIL money with them (see Bronny James), and 2) have a special affinity for UCLA or Los Angeles that supersedes a need for money. Both are highly improbable.
Considering Cronin has to recruit while wearing a straitjacket, I think he's done a wonderful job. He's assembled a roster with upside potential at every position, albeit with raw, inexperienced talent that will need time to develop. Apart from Bona, Dylan, Nwuba, and Will, he's got a completely new roster which will serve as the foundation for the next several seasons.
To be frank, those days of powerhouse universities might be a thing of the past. These multi-year successive runs deep into elite 8 and final 4's by teams like Gonzaga, UK, UNC, Duke, Villanova, Kansas, Arizona, and UCLA (as of late), are no longer automatic because of NIL money which now becomes a bigger bargaining chip than the program itself, and the transfer portal, which allows players to both follow the money and also also increases their brand exposure in new markets, not to mention the lure of the NBA drawing away key players from universities despite not being ready to play NBA ball.
Cronin has said on several occasions that he doesn't seek to fill an entire roster of elite one and dones because UCLA simply can't compete with the likes of UK, Duke, Kansas, etc. in the recruiting arena. He seeks to build a foundational core group of players who he knows will stay for multiple years then augment those players with transfers and one and dones. He's building the foundation for the next 4 seasons. He's starting from the bottom and building his way up. And this takes time. And it takes patience on our part as fans.
To say that he doesn't develop players is a bunch of horse pucky. He got the best out of Jaime Jaquez. He got the best out of Johnny Juzang. He got the best out of Tyger Campbell. He got the best out of Jaylen Clark. He got the best out of Jules Bernard. He got the best out of David Singleton. And I would dare say he got the best out of Amari Bailey, Cody Riley, and Jake Kyman.
The fact of the matter is the only legit NBA player who has come through the UCLA program in recent years is Jaime Jaquez and I think Cronin should get a lot of credit for what Jaime brings to the Miami Heat as a gritty, hard-nose, blue-collar player who knows every facet of the game because that's what Cronin demanded from Jaquez.
Sure, we could talk about Payton Watson and Amari Bailey, who undoubtably would be the stars on this UCLA team had they stayed, but you cannot blame their departures on Cronin, not when they had opportunities to sign NBA contracts and continue their development sitting on the bench of NBA teams or by playing G-League games. If your chosen profession is to become an NBA player and you have the opportunity to get paid, what's the point in staying in school? We already saw this with Jalen Hand and Moses Brown. The kids don't care about school, they just want to play basketball. Studying and attending classes is a time constraint that they don't want or need. Saying this is a Cronin problem is ridiculous. It is a college basketball problem.
And let's examine your statement that Cronin doesn't develop bigs which I think is grossly unfair.
Let's talk about Cody Riley, Kenneth Nwuba, and Jalen Hill, all of whom were Alford recruits and not very good players. All 3 are power forwards in stature, but didn't have the athleticism or shooting skills to effectively operate at that position and ended up playing as undersized centers where they were constantly overmatched. All 3 improved under Cronin in all facets of the game, but I saw enough of all 3 to know that none of them had very high ceilings. If you think Cronin should have turned them into Bam Adebayos, that's like asking for a miracle of biblical proportions. What you saw from them under Cronin was about as good as it gets.
Mac Etienne was a bad player with a questionable attitude. He was never going to amount to anything worthwhile. It was a blessing that he transferred.
Myles Johnson was a senior transfer who was a role player at Rutgers who came home to attend UCLA as a grad student, but who also happened to be a basketball player. He wasn't on an athletic scholarship but instead received grant-in-aid based on his academic achievements and probably would not have played if Jalen Hill had not left the team that season. Cronin had his hands full trying to get him integrated into his system, let alone trying to get a skills improvement out of him.
You don't think Adem Bona has not improved since he came to UCLA? I think he has. Considering the guy had nothing in his game other than jump out of the gym athleticism, I think he's come along ways from when he first put on a Bruin uniform. And if you were expecting an exponential leap, let's not forget that he spent the entire summer recuperating from shoulder surgery and was in fact limited when UCLA opened training camp when school started. From a training standpoint, this summer was a washout for Bona because of that injury.
It's pointless to talk about Aday Mara's development. The guy has played 8 games on U.S. soil. The guy is trying to learn UCLA basketball, life on the UCLA campus, life in the United States.
Let's also not forget that the NCAA prohibits college coaches from conducting practices and training sessions with their players during the summer when school is not in session. It's incumbent on the players to put in their own work during the off-season. It's optional but recommended that they work out in the offseason with private trainers like Phil Handy, Lethal Shooter, Darren Collison, Drew Hanlen, etc. or attend off-season basketball camps like Rick Mahorn's Big Man camp. Mick Cronin and every other coach can try to do what they can during the season while school is in sessions, but the fact remains that the best basketball players in America, both men and women, are putting in the work with private trainers.
Real basketball skills are taught and developed in these basketball academies. College basketball is more of a showcase where those skills can be displayed in a team environment as a stepping stone to professional basketball.
So, IMO, to lay the entire blame on Cronin for the lack of skills development of certain players is wrong. His job is to assemble teams that have the synergy and cohesiveness to play effective team basketball on both ends of the floor. I think he's done exactly that by taking teams with less than superior talent deep into the tournament.
It was because of Cronin's culture instilled in the Bruins that they damn near beat Gonzaga 2 years ago in the semis. That Gonzaga team had 3 starter-caliber NBA players in Kispert, Nembhard, and Suggs. UCLA was thoroughly outclassed in talend, but they lost the game despite winning the battle of pure effort and grit. That's the thing we look for in a Cronin team. That's when the Bruins are at their best.
Cronin said at the beginning of the season, he'll get this team to play, but he didn't know if it would take 2 months or 2 years. We're only 35 days into the season so let's not freak out so soon.
You are right I have it out for mick cronin. I’ve never liked him. He got lucky with a few ncaa tourney runs early and last year hit his ceiling imo. I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt that he’s lasted longer than I thought he would. Once he comes back down to earth with this season and next season showing his true skills we will see the fans start asking for a new coach. Howland made 3 final fours in a row, had one-two bad seasons and was gone. Alford had one good season with ball, leaf, etc, and that was it. Cronin is better than Alford, but not by much. His pomp and arrogance have grown with the last few seasons but pride cometh before the fall.
Saying that cronin is disadvantaged when it comes to recruiting is hogwash. He’s a coach at the best college team in LA where players want to be. Just look at usc. Don’t hide behind this nil business… you said it yourself, the best players are bringing their own nil money with them anyways. The best players don’t depend on the team deals because they can get their own. They go to play where they want to be.
The only legit nba player is Jaime you say? That’s a recruiting problem!
You also said that he’s not responsible for developing players either because that happens with personal coaches and at all those academies… so then we agree, he shouldn’t get much credit for player development.
What he should get credit for is how he coaches. I’ll be the first to say that his second half adjustments are mostly really good, but why is it that they always seem to come out with such an awful game plan in the first place?
My biggest gripe is still the offensive play calling every time down the court. Someone mentioned that self coaches from the sideline, but I’ve never seen a coach call every single offensive call the way cronin does… it’s almost like our players have to check in with cronin on a fast break to make sure they can go for a layup. It’s actually why our fast breaks are so awful and predictably bad because the players didn’t get the play call from cronin so they don’t know what to do.
We can agree to disagree. This season is 35 days in, but it’s already lost… this offense is going nowhere and the play calls from the sidelines will only take this team so far. There’s not enough individual talent like a Jaime to take this season into a better direction.
Cronin's Cincinatti's teams played a mix of man and zone defenses, but his UCLA teams played almost exclusively man defense because those recent teams had solid man defenders including Clark, Jaime, Bernard, Tyger, and even Juzang made significant improvement as a man defender in his 2 seasons at UCLA. This 2023 team has no-where near the defensive ability of those past teams. It should be no surprise that Cronin put in a zone defense. Personally, I think it was a great move for the simple reason that learning to play zone helps create the skills and behaviors you need to run an effective man defense. And to do it now, while the team is still playing its non-conference schedule makes it the right time to do it. And it's worth mentioning that with all the European players on this team, they should have a lot more familiarity playing zone defense since that's the prevalent defense in Euro basketball.
Cronin should be taking a deep dive into running zone for the next several games to see what benefits he can draw from it. As I said, playing a zone defense does create behaviors the team needs to develop. In man defense, if you fall into the trap of playing up on your man chest to chest, you lose sight of the ball, the passing lanes, screens, and all the developing actions. In a zone, you're playing the ball, you're looking to take away the lanes, looking out for screeners, all while staying in contact with the players coming in your area of responsibility, and you learn how to work with teammates on how to neutralize actions.
Finally when you do have to play a man defense, these learned behaviors help greatly in becoming a great man defender because you don't have to stay glued to your man's chest to play effective defense.
If Cronin can get this team to get his 40 deflections a game, then maybe this team can rise up and become something special. I have no idea how this Bruin team is going to score points, but I do know they can be competitive sooner than later by making defense their #1 priority.
One last point - what the heck is going on with Dylan Andrews? I can understand leaving a game with cramps once, but twice now? I hope the team doctors are monitoring his nutrition and hydration rigorously because if it happens a third time, I'm going to be wondering about his health. It should not happen with today's sports medicine.
The first half showed much promise. Individual played better than we have seen. The zone played right into 'nova's strength. Why did we?
CMC was out coached. Also, pg depth has plagued him since day 1.
Agree, where is our point man?
Andrews had cramps which was why he was out.
Has there ever been a team that won consistently with the zone? It seems like a gimmick when we can't play man to man.
Syracuse.
Ahhhh... I didn't know that.
I remember back in the day when the NorthWestern schools would play us with the stall. We saw a visiting team in Pauli play keep-away. "Boring" we would chant. We were a fast break team
Now it's walk the ball down court and wait for the play called from the bench. (I'm cranky from another loss by collapse. Remember when UCLA = Poise?)
I am cranky too.
I remember Ed O, Charles O, Tyus, Cam Dollar, George Z, Toby Bailey and JR. The seniors and freshmen blended so perfectly. That '95 team was a thing of beauty. Bailey and JR didn't take long to show their incredible talent.
There was also a time when a full ride scholarship was considered to be valuable and was appreciated. The NIL and the portal have ruined college sports imho.
I think that the portal and NIL are why Roy Williams and Jay Wright left the game.
Despite roster turnover endemic to college hoops, UCLA seems more beset by the challenges of continuity and blending classes than other programs, and faces that as a challenge EACH YEAR. (We've seen CMC teams are slow to mesh, but develop they do.) He was angered that the pundits left the Bruins unranked preseason. He took it personally that they dismissed the talent he assembled, and his track record. Who is in the right at this early season juncture?
I didn't hear his post-game presser with Josh and Tracy, but by all accounts, he must gain his composure before the team can gain control of the court.
All very good points. We shall see how this season unfolds. But when all is said and done, at least we have the prestigious LA Bowl to look forward to...
'95 was past my time, Tamara. Letting the kids cash in on sponsor ship ruined it as well. $$$ is the end of things. I listen to sports radio in my car. There's a sports betting site called Fanduel. They're an"official partner of the NFL". WTF? Pet Rose can't enter the Baseball Hof?
Agreed. $$$ is the end of things. So very sad what's happened to college sports and to UCLA. It all feels so different now.
Pete Rose bet on games that he played in and that he managed and was in position to alter the outcome of games. That is not analogous to having FanDuel as an NFL sponsor.
Ed O let the charge for the NIL. I'm all for it. Yes, NIL and the transfer portal have ruined the "establishment." But it benefits the players which is the whole point of school: to give them a better chance to make a good living. As much as I want to see my school win, I care more about what happens to them after school.
NIL and the portal benefits only the student - athlete, but does not benefit them after school. Only a fraction of student-athletes play professional sports. It is academics which prepares them for after school. So, if you're concerned about what happens to them after school, wouldn't you be more concerned about their education and chance to earn a good living than the NIL/portal?
I loved the '95 team and I loved Ed and Charles. But I do not like the portal or the NIL regardless of Ed leading the charge. The athletes get a full ride scholarship and that is worth 10s of 1000s at UCLA, and for out of state athletes its worth well over $100k. Most of us ordinary students could only dream of a full ride scholarship. This is my opinion and I am certain there are many who will disagree.
Once again bona fouled out. That does not bode well for us.
But also these are games that we weren't "expected" to win with an inexperienced team
I was at the game, Andrews was on the bench getting theragunned for his left hamstring. Seemed like it was really bothering him
Disappointed in so many ways. The play calling from the bench is one of the many reasons players don’t want to play for mick. His recruiting has been really poor on high tier talent. We can’t really count the foreign players in my opinion because this year is proof that won’t work.
USC for example has no coach, but at least he can get commits from his back yard! This team will get better like they all do, but mick has reached his ceiling with last years team. Jaquez was always coming to ucla regardless of who was coaching… there just aren’t that many Jaime’s interested in ucla anymore
Yes. bringing in so many overseas players and not being able to recruit locally this past year is not working. The overseas guys are not very well suited for the college game in terms if strength, defense, or quickness.
I have tried to remain positive and hopeful that at least Mara and Berkey will develop and become solid contributors. We do have talent at the guard positions. But the chemistry and leadership is not there as Bona keeps getting in foul trouble and he is our best player imho.
Last year's team could have won the championship without the injuries, but there were still long stretches of no offense in many games.
I hope I am wrong 😞
Dylan Andrews was held out for a big chunk of the second half due to cramps, according to post game comments
I think it’s a little too early to say that a group of freshmen aren’t working. It’s not even the conference season yet! Freshmen generally aren’t plug-and-play. We saw how that failed with Dante Moore this year and with guys like Peyton Watson in the past. Even players like Zach Lavine didn’t do well in college and it wasn’t until he had several years of nba coaching that he started meeting his potential.
I do think it’s important to recognize the progress that guys like Aday and Ilane have made in working their way to becoming better players. And with Berke, he’s only played 3 games before going down with an injury, and he didn’t have the benefit of running with the team against the early season cupcakes. I still have faith in Cronin to turn this team around, because this team still looks further along than the team he had in his first year.
I really like your assessment and perspective. Perhaps I jumped too early on thinking this is not working. We shall see how this season unfolds. I hope they all develop and grow together. Bona has the chance to be a real leader and help those around him.
In hindsight, I think the disappointment may be rooted in the huge hype machine that built up Mara and to a bit lesser degree built up Berkey. It's easy to be let down when expectations are high. But patience is something to be valued.
💙💛
I think this is fair to an extent… but I also have wondered for the last few years why it is that players don’t want to stay in ucla?
Peyton Watson is a prime example of this where he could have benefited from more years in college.
A few more examples of players going pro that should clearly have stayed:
Amari Bailey
Tyger Campbell
Jaylen Clark
Johnny juzang
Chris smith
Cody Riley
I get it, players want to take their shot going pro… but it’s a bit strange that they are so anxious to get out of ucla under mick.
My other big player issue is the development of bigs, or lack of, under mick cronin…
Cody Riley
Mac etienne
Kenneth nwuba
Myles Johnson
Aden bona
*aday Mara
UCLA has always failed to get as much out of bigs as they should under mick. Adem is a freak of nature on defense, but he still gets some really dumb fouls and makes a lot of really bad decisions on offense. He’s made progress, but I have no idea why he stayed this year. Would have gotten so much better coaching and development in the nba then he will get under mick. Adem needs offense development.
Lastly, and I’ve said it before… mick’s recruiting has gotten worse. I don’t blame recruits for not wanting to come to ucla. If I’m an nba prospect, I’m not coming to ucla… there’s no way I’m playing for mick over the options of self, calipari, few, Lloyd, scheyer, Sampson…. The list goes on. Sorry, but the bench coaching on offense is an absolute killer for anybody that’s talented enough and wants to learn by making mistakes.
I mean, with that first group, for some like Campbell and Smith it was time for them to move on, and you shouldn't hold it against Cronin that they decided to finally go to pro ball after staying at the school for 4+ years. Juzang, if you'll recall, actually came back an extra year and didn't capitalize on when his draft stock was highest following the Final Four run. Clark was probably gone after this year anyway and you could easily see a world where he decides its more beneficial to his long-term development to do his recovery with a pro team and not have to worry about things like college classes. And this doesn't even get into the fact that Cronin was able to keep guy for multiple years. Campbell decided to stick around for five years instead of transferring after Cronin first arrived in Westwood, Jaquez played his entire career here. Juzang, Bernard, Riley all stayed extra years when they could have left early (Riley stuck around even after China). It's like, yeah Watson and Bailey left early, but they were both projected to be 1st round picks when they came to Westwood, and likely had already decided that was what they wanted to do no matter how the season played out. Certainly that decision is working for Watson, and the jury is out on how it will play for Bailey (certainly ending up in Charlotte is as big a hindrance as anything in his case).
I think the big thing is a dynamic to monitor, but I would also note that UCLA has been a very perimeter-oriented squad since Cronin arrived, which made sense since they had Campbell/Jaquez/Juzang/Bailey for most of that run. UCLA's bigs have never really been a focal point as they are this year, so it will be interesting to see if the development improves now that they're getting more focus.
Finally, I think it is important to note that the NBA and college require two very different skillsets. You don't get as many cases of one player absolutely dominating college the same way you do in the NBA thanks to different rules on defense, fouling, the shotclock, etc. And the Final Fours the last few years have been dominated by coaches who are heavily involved in what their team does on a possession-by-possession basis (like, give Self credit here, the dude is always coaching while play is happening). The best advertisement for Cronin right now is that the best rookie playing in the NBA right now is...Jaime Jaquez, the prototypical Cronin player.
I specifically commented that I don’t think Jaime is the norm though… more specifically, mick didn’t recruit Jaime. He was coming to ucla regardless as he said many times.
I stand by my point that mick is a very poor recruiter and that incoming players don’t want to play for him. The only reason the foreigners even came left before the season started. Mick had a plethora of open scholarships and struck out across the board. That says something about his ability to get good players to come to ucla.
I have to disagree with your premise that players don’t like playing for Mick. UCLA has one of the lowest transfer outs in the country. In fact, with the exception of Jake Kyman (who has been struggling everywhere he’s gone), everyone who’s transferred out were reportedly asked to leave to make room for our incoming freshmen.
As for your list of who should’ve stayed: Juzang literally returned to play for Mick when his stock was super high following the FF run,
Tyger already was in college for 5 years and didn’t want a 6th year in college (who would?) and he’s currently playing in one of the best leagues in Europe. Same with Cody
Clark was National Defensive POY. When you’re literally the best defensive player in the country, what more can any college coach teach him? If he came back and struggled post-injury, that would have severely hurt his stock. Same with Chris Smith - coming back from injury is rough and risk is too high already if your ultimate goal is a professional contract.
As for big men development, I actually think Cronin has done a good job. Bona has made tremendous improvement on both the defensive and offensive end. Last year, he didn’t have a jump shot but he’s added that to his arsenal this year. Mara is still 9 games in and we’re already seeing massive improvement in his footwork and movement. He just needs to put on weight to avoid getting pushed around but that happens over a number months, not weeks. As for Nwuba, he was a lightly recruited barely 3-star player from Alford’s last recruiting class (I believe) and he’s now a serviceable backup and defensive player and was instrumental in our FF run.
If players don’t like mick, then why doesn’t ucla have incoming talent like all the other blue bloods. USC is getting better players than ucla these days, because us players don’t want to play for mick! Why would you go to usc? The only reason is because you want to be in LA and the alternative isn’t as appealing! It certainly isn’t because they like enfield… he’s a garbage coach, but it says something that most incoming us players choosing between mick and enfield choose enfield
Wake up y’all… next years recruiting pull so far isn’t any good either
Or, said another way, Cronin is becoming the Chip Alfor of recruiting.
I feel like there's a real misunderstanding of why Southern Cal got Collier and Bronny and the like. As you mention, it's not because Enfield is a good coach, but rather because he is so bad that he cannot afford to tell his players what to do, which means those guys can get their NIL bag (which is something you happen to leave out repeatedly regarding how UCLA isn't on the same level of some of the other programs on that front) while doing whatever they want.
Also, like, that USC team with all the amazing recruits has lost to UCI and Long Beach State already this year. Turns out recruiting isn't the be-all, end-all!
I told you, the reason they suck is because they don’t have a coach… not because they don’t have good players. USC is getting just as many players to the nba as ucla most years. They lose because they don’t have a coach, not because they aren’t good players.
I don’t know how the nil deals work, but it seems that anyone can do it no? Is ucla excluded from good nil deals, or just that they don’t actually have players that are good enough for one?
NIL deals as they currently exist are essentially boosters pooling money together to pay players. UCLA's boosters have been, by and large, wary of joining in on the NIL wars, so UCLA's NIL fund is much lower than that of a Kansas/Kentucky/Duke. That's part of the reason UCLA shifted to the Euros last year; they did not have the money to compete for the big names they were in on, but the Euros did not require a huge NIL commitment. The UCLA NIL fund is doing better, and I believe the reports are that each player is getting a decent amount of money, but we're nowhere near what the top levels are.
UCLA isn't excluded from anything beyond what they can afford, and Cronin has been doing his best to try and engage the donor base to support NIL (he's the one UCLA coach constantly wearing MoW merch and promoting it, unlike Chip Kelly). Problem is UCLA Admin has not been similarly supportive, and the UCLA NIL itself has been pretty small-time in how it approached things. Apparently they're ramping up now, but I am still wary of the group for various reasons.
For the record, on another thread, I said that UCLA is getting the cold shoulder from recruits because of a lack moneybags for NIL, hence the Euro pursuit.
To add on to what Dimitri said abt the difference between Enfield vs Cronin, the reason we have only one signed recruit next year is because we only have one scholarship available with Nwuba’s graduation. Should Bona leave, I’m sure ucla will be in the hunt for more recruits although I wouldn’t be surprise if they go hunting in the transfer portal.
Good programs plan on having 3 scholarships available every year. If you’re keeping an entire set of players and only one scholarship is available, that limits your ability to keep up with all the other blue bloods that realize this. A program full of juniors and seniors in a big 5 conference is doing something wrong… good college players leave for better opportunities
Didn't you just lambast Cronin for not keeping guys multiple years?
Except look at the roster of the ncaa tournament champions of the last few years - they’re all comprised heavily of 3-4 year players as their major contributors
Baskets, I'm confused. Players would have benefitted from more years in college, and lack of player development if they stay? Can't have it both ways.
It’s a good clarification. I think most of the players can develop technical skills in the nba better if there is an nba team that will teach them. Should adem have gone to the nba his path may have looked a lot more like Watson for example imo.
Then there are players like Jaime that develop game skills by staying for additional years and getting actual game play time. Jaime got lots of play time because he wasn’t constantly in foul trouble though. Our big players are constantly in foul trouble under cronin. This means less player development which is really all you are staying in college for is actual game play
You sure do have it in for Mick Cronin and most of it is unfair and unreasonable. I hold a completely different viewpoint than you. I believe Mick has gotten the best out of the players who have come through his program, starting with the players he inherited from Alford and including the players he signed.
Cronin is largely disadvantaged when it comes to recruiting. It's difficult for him to go after the best kids in the country when UCLA barely registers a blip on the radar screen when it comes to NIL money. Out of the top 100 college basketball players on the NIL money list, UCLA has one player, Adem Bona, listed at #89 with $98K total NIL money. That may seem like a lot of money, but the top 37 basketball players have NIL deals totaling over $250,000.
Put it this way: There are fourteen (14) NCAA women basketball players making more money than Adem Bona.
The best players in the country are not coming to UCLA unless they are 1) bringing their own NIL money with them (see Bronny James), and 2) have a special affinity for UCLA or Los Angeles that supersedes a need for money. Both are highly improbable.
Considering Cronin has to recruit while wearing a straitjacket, I think he's done a wonderful job. He's assembled a roster with upside potential at every position, albeit with raw, inexperienced talent that will need time to develop. Apart from Bona, Dylan, Nwuba, and Will, he's got a completely new roster which will serve as the foundation for the next several seasons.
To be frank, those days of powerhouse universities might be a thing of the past. These multi-year successive runs deep into elite 8 and final 4's by teams like Gonzaga, UK, UNC, Duke, Villanova, Kansas, Arizona, and UCLA (as of late), are no longer automatic because of NIL money which now becomes a bigger bargaining chip than the program itself, and the transfer portal, which allows players to both follow the money and also also increases their brand exposure in new markets, not to mention the lure of the NBA drawing away key players from universities despite not being ready to play NBA ball.
Cronin has said on several occasions that he doesn't seek to fill an entire roster of elite one and dones because UCLA simply can't compete with the likes of UK, Duke, Kansas, etc. in the recruiting arena. He seeks to build a foundational core group of players who he knows will stay for multiple years then augment those players with transfers and one and dones. He's building the foundation for the next 4 seasons. He's starting from the bottom and building his way up. And this takes time. And it takes patience on our part as fans.
To say that he doesn't develop players is a bunch of horse pucky. He got the best out of Jaime Jaquez. He got the best out of Johnny Juzang. He got the best out of Tyger Campbell. He got the best out of Jaylen Clark. He got the best out of Jules Bernard. He got the best out of David Singleton. And I would dare say he got the best out of Amari Bailey, Cody Riley, and Jake Kyman.
The fact of the matter is the only legit NBA player who has come through the UCLA program in recent years is Jaime Jaquez and I think Cronin should get a lot of credit for what Jaime brings to the Miami Heat as a gritty, hard-nose, blue-collar player who knows every facet of the game because that's what Cronin demanded from Jaquez.
Sure, we could talk about Payton Watson and Amari Bailey, who undoubtably would be the stars on this UCLA team had they stayed, but you cannot blame their departures on Cronin, not when they had opportunities to sign NBA contracts and continue their development sitting on the bench of NBA teams or by playing G-League games. If your chosen profession is to become an NBA player and you have the opportunity to get paid, what's the point in staying in school? We already saw this with Jalen Hand and Moses Brown. The kids don't care about school, they just want to play basketball. Studying and attending classes is a time constraint that they don't want or need. Saying this is a Cronin problem is ridiculous. It is a college basketball problem.
And let's examine your statement that Cronin doesn't develop bigs which I think is grossly unfair.
Let's talk about Cody Riley, Kenneth Nwuba, and Jalen Hill, all of whom were Alford recruits and not very good players. All 3 are power forwards in stature, but didn't have the athleticism or shooting skills to effectively operate at that position and ended up playing as undersized centers where they were constantly overmatched. All 3 improved under Cronin in all facets of the game, but I saw enough of all 3 to know that none of them had very high ceilings. If you think Cronin should have turned them into Bam Adebayos, that's like asking for a miracle of biblical proportions. What you saw from them under Cronin was about as good as it gets.
Mac Etienne was a bad player with a questionable attitude. He was never going to amount to anything worthwhile. It was a blessing that he transferred.
Myles Johnson was a senior transfer who was a role player at Rutgers who came home to attend UCLA as a grad student, but who also happened to be a basketball player. He wasn't on an athletic scholarship but instead received grant-in-aid based on his academic achievements and probably would not have played if Jalen Hill had not left the team that season. Cronin had his hands full trying to get him integrated into his system, let alone trying to get a skills improvement out of him.
You don't think Adem Bona has not improved since he came to UCLA? I think he has. Considering the guy had nothing in his game other than jump out of the gym athleticism, I think he's come along ways from when he first put on a Bruin uniform. And if you were expecting an exponential leap, let's not forget that he spent the entire summer recuperating from shoulder surgery and was in fact limited when UCLA opened training camp when school started. From a training standpoint, this summer was a washout for Bona because of that injury.
It's pointless to talk about Aday Mara's development. The guy has played 8 games on U.S. soil. The guy is trying to learn UCLA basketball, life on the UCLA campus, life in the United States.
Let's also not forget that the NCAA prohibits college coaches from conducting practices and training sessions with their players during the summer when school is not in session. It's incumbent on the players to put in their own work during the off-season. It's optional but recommended that they work out in the offseason with private trainers like Phil Handy, Lethal Shooter, Darren Collison, Drew Hanlen, etc. or attend off-season basketball camps like Rick Mahorn's Big Man camp. Mick Cronin and every other coach can try to do what they can during the season while school is in sessions, but the fact remains that the best basketball players in America, both men and women, are putting in the work with private trainers.
Real basketball skills are taught and developed in these basketball academies. College basketball is more of a showcase where those skills can be displayed in a team environment as a stepping stone to professional basketball.
So, IMO, to lay the entire blame on Cronin for the lack of skills development of certain players is wrong. His job is to assemble teams that have the synergy and cohesiveness to play effective team basketball on both ends of the floor. I think he's done exactly that by taking teams with less than superior talent deep into the tournament.
It was because of Cronin's culture instilled in the Bruins that they damn near beat Gonzaga 2 years ago in the semis. That Gonzaga team had 3 starter-caliber NBA players in Kispert, Nembhard, and Suggs. UCLA was thoroughly outclassed in talend, but they lost the game despite winning the battle of pure effort and grit. That's the thing we look for in a Cronin team. That's when the Bruins are at their best.
Cronin said at the beginning of the season, he'll get this team to play, but he didn't know if it would take 2 months or 2 years. We're only 35 days into the season so let's not freak out so soon.
You are right I have it out for mick cronin. I’ve never liked him. He got lucky with a few ncaa tourney runs early and last year hit his ceiling imo. I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt that he’s lasted longer than I thought he would. Once he comes back down to earth with this season and next season showing his true skills we will see the fans start asking for a new coach. Howland made 3 final fours in a row, had one-two bad seasons and was gone. Alford had one good season with ball, leaf, etc, and that was it. Cronin is better than Alford, but not by much. His pomp and arrogance have grown with the last few seasons but pride cometh before the fall.
Saying that cronin is disadvantaged when it comes to recruiting is hogwash. He’s a coach at the best college team in LA where players want to be. Just look at usc. Don’t hide behind this nil business… you said it yourself, the best players are bringing their own nil money with them anyways. The best players don’t depend on the team deals because they can get their own. They go to play where they want to be.
The only legit nba player is Jaime you say? That’s a recruiting problem!
You also said that he’s not responsible for developing players either because that happens with personal coaches and at all those academies… so then we agree, he shouldn’t get much credit for player development.
What he should get credit for is how he coaches. I’ll be the first to say that his second half adjustments are mostly really good, but why is it that they always seem to come out with such an awful game plan in the first place?
My biggest gripe is still the offensive play calling every time down the court. Someone mentioned that self coaches from the sideline, but I’ve never seen a coach call every single offensive call the way cronin does… it’s almost like our players have to check in with cronin on a fast break to make sure they can go for a layup. It’s actually why our fast breaks are so awful and predictably bad because the players didn’t get the play call from cronin so they don’t know what to do.
We can agree to disagree. This season is 35 days in, but it’s already lost… this offense is going nowhere and the play calls from the sidelines will only take this team so far. There’s not enough individual talent like a Jaime to take this season into a better direction.
And by the way, if you like getting a big bag of money, tax-free, you definitely should go play for Self or Sampson.
Cronin's Cincinatti's teams played a mix of man and zone defenses, but his UCLA teams played almost exclusively man defense because those recent teams had solid man defenders including Clark, Jaime, Bernard, Tyger, and even Juzang made significant improvement as a man defender in his 2 seasons at UCLA. This 2023 team has no-where near the defensive ability of those past teams. It should be no surprise that Cronin put in a zone defense. Personally, I think it was a great move for the simple reason that learning to play zone helps create the skills and behaviors you need to run an effective man defense. And to do it now, while the team is still playing its non-conference schedule makes it the right time to do it. And it's worth mentioning that with all the European players on this team, they should have a lot more familiarity playing zone defense since that's the prevalent defense in Euro basketball.
Cronin should be taking a deep dive into running zone for the next several games to see what benefits he can draw from it. As I said, playing a zone defense does create behaviors the team needs to develop. In man defense, if you fall into the trap of playing up on your man chest to chest, you lose sight of the ball, the passing lanes, screens, and all the developing actions. In a zone, you're playing the ball, you're looking to take away the lanes, looking out for screeners, all while staying in contact with the players coming in your area of responsibility, and you learn how to work with teammates on how to neutralize actions.
Finally when you do have to play a man defense, these learned behaviors help greatly in becoming a great man defender because you don't have to stay glued to your man's chest to play effective defense.
If Cronin can get this team to get his 40 deflections a game, then maybe this team can rise up and become something special. I have no idea how this Bruin team is going to score points, but I do know they can be competitive sooner than later by making defense their #1 priority.
One last point - what the heck is going on with Dylan Andrews? I can understand leaving a game with cramps once, but twice now? I hope the team doctors are monitoring his nutrition and hydration rigorously because if it happens a third time, I'm going to be wondering about his health. It should not happen with today's sports medicine.
I do remember, Chenalex